Hit the 1000 mark! How exciting!


vesperass-anuna:

starshinehp:

wanderingrookie:

m4rvel24:

wanderingrookie:

fandomwasteland:

allagentsofshield:

wanderingrookie:

allagentsofshield:

wanderingrookie:

allagentsofshield:

wanderingrookie:

vesperass-anuna:

starshinehp:

allagentsofshield:

Coulson and Skye cutting the crap and telling it how it is.

Patiently waiting until the tables are turned next season. Coulson is already writing nonsense on the walls, so there is no saying how much the serum will effect him and what he will become. And Skye will have to face her heritage at some point, and decide what to do with the fact that her parents are literal monsters. Survival and the tough choices that come with it may very well start seeming a tad more palatable to her down the road.

Phil is right. No matter what diagnostic criteria you consult, John Garrett falls into a profile of what a mental professional would call a psychopath. (The correct term is antisocial personality disorder). 

However, if Grant Ward is a serial killer, then every soldier, police officer, special agent and every other service person who has committed more than two kills is also a serial killer. Or to make it really really simple for you OP: Grant Ward doesn’t fit the criteria of a serial killer profile. 

Sincerely, 

a person who profiles people at work. 

Lmao!

OP got owned by educated people! Love it when that happens.

Okay, so I try not to reblog my own stuff but since I was referred to specifically in this comment, I feel like I should respond.

Firstly, I’d like to thank vesperass-anuna for their input. Getting feedback from someone who profiles people for a living is really interesting.

Secondly, I too am educated, thank you very much. I’m a psychology student in my honours year. I have spent six years being trained on how to diagnose various disorders. I assure you, I know what psychopaths and serial killers are. My expertise is not close to vesperass-anuna’s, of course, but the moment Skye called Ward a serial killer my first thought was ‘well, technically, he’s not’ as well. I spent ages thinking about how serial killers, unlike, say, assassins for example, kill for emotional and/or psychological gratification and whether killing to please Garrett comes even close to this. Ward behaves more like a soldier: willing to kill under orders from his superior because he believes that’s the right thing to do.

However, after deliberating on this for a very long time, I came to the conclusion that Skye was not using the term ‘serial killer’ in the technical manner. She used the most cutting term she could think of to try and hurt the man who betrayed her.

And you know what? I am not a Ward hater. I understand both sides of the ‘is Ward redeemable’ debate, hence why I’ve avoided getting involved in it. However, the man has killed good people. There is no doubt that he has done bad things. Whatever the reasons for his decisions, he needs to answer for them. He needs someone to ‘cut the crap’ as I said and call out his mistakes. If no one does that, he won’t acknowledge those mistakes. And if he doesn’t acknowledge them, how the hell is he supposed to be redeemed? If he isn’t redeemed and he continues killing, the term ‘serial killer’ may become justified depending on his motivation. That’s something we can discuss in season 2.

Sincerely,

The educated OP who was not, in fact, owned.

So then the caption was incorrect. If you knew Skye’s use of the term was incorrect then how is that her “telling it like it is”? That sounds like a contradiction to me. I will hand it to Coulson though. He finally took notice that his longtime friend was in fact a psychopath. About time too.

By ‘telling it like it is’ I meant that the characters themselves are being brutally honest from their perspective, not necessarily scientifically accurate. From what I took from this scene, Skye is not using the term ‘serial killer’ in a scientific, diagnostic manner. She’s not standing there analyzing Ward’s motivations for killing. I believe she literally means he has committed a series of murders (i.e., he has killed multiple people) which he has. So no, I don’t believe it’s an inaccurate caption since I was referring to her being honest rather than technically accurate.

But of course I understand and respect that you see it differently from me. And I hope you understand why I felt the need to reply to your ‘lmao love when OP’s get owned’ comment. The way that was worded was mildly hurtful. I wanted to clarify that I was not trying to insult Ward when making this gifset. I’m not saying either way whether people should stand with Ward or not. Like I said, I understand both sides and choose not to get involved in the debate. I was simply pointing out Coulson and Skye’s similarity in being brutally honest when it comes to expressing how they think and feel.

Thank you for explaining that. I realize that my commentary to vesperass-anuna’s response came off as rude. And it apologize for that. After 3 months of mud slinging, we’ve started to become defensive. Some of us have had to disappear for a few days to get away from the hate we get. This fandom has taken cyber bullying to a whole new level. There are people who seek out pro-Ward blogs to send anon-hate or catalogue their meta posts to use as examples in their own posts to trash fans. It’s all gotten a bit ridiculous. So I do apologize that I, myself, came out on the defensive when it really wasn’t necessary. We’re supposed to be better than those people. I try to be. But sometimes my anger gets the best of me. And I’m sorry for that.

I don’t particularly like Skye in that scene. But I understand her completely. I don’t like Ward in that scene either. Even though he is “telling it more like it is” than she is. To be honest, the last Skyeward scene that I truly liked took place in 1x19. After that, I don’t like any of the scenes they shared. Because we saw them both at their worst.

But I can’t agree that Skye is “telling it like it is” in this scene. I can agree that she is being just as hurtful to Ward as haters are being to fans of Ward.

Her calling him a serial killer is the equivalent of us being called Nazi apologists. It’s vile and completely wrong. Which is why I don’t like it. And it really bothers me that people completely sided with Skye knowing what they know. Because as the audience, we already know a lot more about what has happened and is happening than the character does. We’re supposed to be using that bird’s eye view that we have to understand the narrative. Instead, there are people who are acting like they’re on the ground with these fictional characters and being completely ignorant and narrow minded, just like Skye. And that bugs me. Because I can never be like that. But you know the serenity prayer, right? I find myself reciting that more and more this summer. Because God knows I have needed it. This fandom is just the worst.

Apology accepted. Like I said, it’s perfectly fine with me if we see things differently. It was only the wording of your comment that upset me a bit and I understand that it was borne out of defensiveness. I have noticed the ridiculous amount of hate going around this fandom and I really don’t understand why. Sometimes I’ll be reading a post and it’s so overwhelmingly and unnecessarily hateful that I have to just close it.

I actually don’t like Skye in quite a few scenes. I spent a good chunk of the season thinking ‘please…just stop.’ I grew to like her more over the season though. I think I understand why she said what she said here. If I found out the man I was falling for had betrayed me like this, I think I would say hurtful things as well. However, you’re right. We as the audience do have more information. Whether we take that information to defend Ward or hate him is up to each individual person. I wish we could do that and discuss our opinions without hating on each other though. I may not change my mind, but I’d love to hear all sides, you know? But that’s why I’ve been avoiding the debate, I just know that no matter what my opinion is, even if it’s neutral, I’ll be slammed.

Can I just also say how glad I am that I avoid shipping? I feel like it’s a whole lot less stressful!

Wow… This is intense for two characters that are crazy (either psychopath or stock home syndrome)

I don’t think that a person who has Stockholm Syndrome should be labeled as “crazy”. That’s an incorrect assessment. It’s a psychological symptom that victims get from a traumatic experience. Ward has Stockholm Syndrome. You’re absolutely right about that. And it needs to be treated. But he’s not crazy.

I’m not an expert or anything but a serial killer is a person who kills 3 or more people in 30 days. First he killed Thomas Nash, then he killed Victoria Hand, and 2 other guards.

Actually, a serial killer is someone who kills with a motive. That motive usually has some kind of a psychological gratification. Grant Ward is a soldier who has killed a lot of people. Both civilian and other soldiers. There is no gratification in his killings. They don’t even show that he enjoys them. They’re clean and concise kills. They’re torture free. Serial killers taunt their victims. The most brutal kill he has committed (based on the weapon used) was Koenig. And a lot of fans have started to wonder if it was the most difficult kill because now it’s rumored that Koenig was not even human. If speculation is correct, the Koenigs are LMDs (Life-Model Decoys). So basically… They’re robots.

Wow, here I am arguing that anyone in this day and age knows what defines a serial killer, and the person 2 posts above me comes and proves me completely wrong! It’s not about speed or number, you poor soul. It’s about motive. It it were about numbers, lots of soldiers would be labeled that.

Anyway, never it be said I don’t own my mistakes. I stand humbly corrected. Some people have no idea what serial killers are.

Or they do, but choose to ignore it.

If it was number + speed thatd etermined who the serial killer is, then a lot of state - sanctioned personel, like soldiers, police officers, agents etc would be in fact serial killers. And that’s a whole lotta serial killers walking around us all.

In a previous post I wrote:

You are completely right that many and possibly the majority of people know what serial killer is. Unfortunately, not everyone does.

I wasn’t kidding.

I actually feel really bad because I burst out laughing when I read someone making this point. However, in all seriousness, I know not everyone can learn what a serial killer is. Maybe they don’t watch cop shows. Maybe they don’t have psychology classes in their school (I didn’t). Maybe they just genuinely didn’t have the opportunity to learn about such things. It’s not like depression or anxiety which most of us have some experience with, even if we just have a friend of a friend with such problems. Serial killing, psychopathy and the like are concepts which are generally foreign to most of us.

So not understanding what a serial killer is is understandable in many circumstances. However, I hope that when people are reading this post it helps them understand. I don’t think any of the pro-Ward posters above are telling you that killing people without having a serial killer motive is okay, so we should all forgive him. They’re not saying that you should totally love the guy because he’s probably not a serial killer. He has done bad things and whether you support him or not is totally up to you. They (and I) are simply pointing out the fact that Ward, as far as we can tell with the information given to us thus far, does not behave like a serial killer. This, of course, may change depending on where the writers take the character next season so I’m not going to say for sure whether he is one or not. Maybe next season, Ward will suddenly discover (or we will learn) that he can only feel gratified when he kills people. Writers often make sudden twists, sometimes justified, sometimes not. But at this moment, Ward doesn’t behave like a serial killer.


Anonymous;
she was actually the nicest person in the world and she freaking hugged me and akswksnckefnvvf yeah it was great! met her at supanova which is this australian thingy :))) just thought you should know how amazing she is in real life!  

She was at Supanova??? Aw, crap, I live in Australia too, how did I miss that??

You’re so lucky! I’ve watched interviews with her and she seems really lovely. And bubbly which was a total shock after seeing her only as Melinda May!

Thanks for sharing!

Posted 2 weeks ago + reblog

starshinehp:

vesperass-anuna:

allagentsofshield:

vesperass-anuna:

wanderingrookie:

allagentsofshield:

wanderingrookie:

vesperass-anuna:

starshinehp:

allagentsofshield:

Coulson and Skye cutting the crap and telling it how it is.

Patiently waiting until the tables are turned next season. Coulson is already writing nonsense on the walls, so there is no saying how much the serum will effect him and what he will become. And Skye will have to face her heritage at some point, and decide what to do with the fact that her parents are literal monsters. Survival and the tough choices that come with it may very well start seeming a tad more palatable to her down the road.

Phil is right. No matter what diagnostic criteria you consult, John Garrett falls into a profile of what a mental professional would call a psychopath. (The correct term is antisocial personality disorder). 

However, if Grant Ward is a serial killer, then every soldier, police officer, special agent and every other service person who has committed more than two kills is also a serial killer. Or to make it really really simple for you OP: Grant Ward doesn’t fit the criteria of a serial killer profile. 

Sincerely, 

a person who profiles people at work. 

Lmao!

OP got owned by educated people! Love it when that happens.

Okay, so I try not to reblog my own stuff but since I was referred to specifically in this comment, I feel like I should respond.

Firstly, I’d like to thank vesperass-anuna for their input. Getting feedback from someone who profiles people for a living is really interesting.

Secondly, I too am educated, thank you very much. I’m a psychology student in my honours year. I have spent six years being trained on how to diagnose various disorders. I assure you, I know what psychopaths and serial killers are. My expertise is not close to vesperass-anuna’s, of course, but the moment Skye called Ward a serial killer my first thought was ‘well, technically, he’s not’ as well. I spent ages thinking about how serial killers, unlike, say, assassins for example, kill for emotional and/or psychological gratification and whether killing to please Garrett comes even close to this. Ward behaves more like a soldier: willing to kill under orders from his superior because he believes that’s the right thing to do.

However, after deliberating on this for a very long time, I came to the conclusion that Skye was not using the term ‘serial killer’ in the technical manner. She used the most cutting term she could think of to try and hurt the man who betrayed her.

And you know what? I am not a Ward hater. I understand both sides of the ‘is Ward redeemable’ debate, hence why I’ve avoided getting involved in it. However, the man has killed good people. There is no doubt that he has done bad things. Whatever the reasons for his decisions, he needs to answer for them. He needs someone to ‘cut the crap’ as I said and call out his mistakes. If no one does that, he won’t acknowledge those mistakes. And if he doesn’t acknowledge them, how the hell is he supposed to be redeemed? If he isn’t redeemed and he continues killing, the term ‘serial killer’ may become justified depending on his motivation. That’s something we can discuss in season 2.

Sincerely,

The educated OP who was not, in fact, owned.

So then the caption was incorrect. If you knew Skye’s use of the term was incorrect then how is that her “telling it like it is”? That sounds like a contradiction to me. I will hand it to Coulson though. He finally took notice that his longtime friend was in fact a psychopath. About time too.

allagentsofshield we are in agreement - what Skye said to Ward had the goal of hurting him. An that IS her telling him to cut the crap. My issue with this is not what she said or even why she said it, it’s with the people in fandom who take these words, which were said in anger, and throwing them at me and other Ward fans and calling us Nazi/serial killer apologists. I repeated over and over that Ward doesn’t act like a serial killer. He doesn’t kill for gratification just as you said, he behaves like a soldier. In fact we know he is a trained and hired killer since the show started, but we started judging his actions only after 1x17 (and I am not excusing him, however, I am wondering when are we, as the audience, going to think killing is okay/ and one hired killer is doing a job we approve of while another is being condemned. That’s a question that goes beyond the show too. And that’s one of the reasons why I like AoS - it makes you ask the hard questions and think.) As for psychopaths, Garrett fills the bill. I’ve seen more of those types than I’d like. *shudder* And while sometimes it’s useful to recognize these people after relatively brief interaction, I wish I worked in kindergarten. Or picked a profession of a florist. 

As  for Ward, I sincerely hope he does recognize that things he did were wrong. I expect it won’t happen right away, I expect he’ll be lost and that there would be an eye opening moment somewhere in the first half of the season. I truly hope it doesn’t drag out long. I also expect a lot of people to attack and push in our faces how Ward is terrible and will never get better, is evil etc. From my point of view, I don’t think he’ll turn into a serial killer who kills for gratification; I do fear he could be manipulated by, say, Raina. But all of that remains to be seen and I will judge what he’s become or what kind of progress (or lack of progress ) he’s made at the end of season 2. 

Finally, I realize I probably sounded rude. While it doesn’t excuse me, what I can  say for myself is that I am very frustrated after being called things like Nazi and racist for three months now. 

No, no, you don’t sound rude at all! Like you said, we’re in agreement. I really appreciate you explaining your point of view without saying I’m wrong or something similar. I was a bit hurt by wanderingrookie’s comment since my caption was meant to be a basic description rather than an opinion. I wasn’t prepared for that comment.

I agree with you. Ward does not act like a serial killer in how we define serial killer. But we obviously have a different definition from others due to our job/training. I think most people think of it as simply those who kill multiple people, which I’m obviously not saying is right, but is different from serial killing defined in psychology.

I’m so sorry that things have gotten so upsetting and frustrating for you, especially if you’re just explaining that, from what we’ve seen so far, Ward is a murderer but not technically a serial killer. Fandoms can be scary. And contradictory as well since in some you get slaughtered for sympathizing with the villain, and in others you get slaughtered if you don’t. I’m staying out of the debate and I look at what’s happened anyway. This fandom is especially strange since in most other ones, fans tend to almost unanimously love or hate a character. Ward seems to have split people right down the middle which is unusual. And kinda cool until people start insulting each other all over the place.

Thank you for sharing your opinion, truly. I really enjoy this kind of civil discussion. It doesn’t matter if I agree with you or not, I’m happy to listen and discuss so feel free to send me messages or educationally ‘own’ me again :) (but, like, nicely because I too really, really, really don’t want to fight with anyone). I promise not to be mean.

I think that wanderingrookie is just as frustrated as I am, and while I can’t speak for her, I know she’s not a mean or nasty person. But we’ve been through three months of bullying, anon hate, hate-tagging and whatnot - simply because we happen to like Ward and want to see him find his way out of the darkness and truly earn to be on the good side again. You say that and boom, it’s open season. 

Yeah, I agree, people use terms that mean different things for us who are educated in terms of psychology and mental disorders. And I think it’s important to share that knowledge, especially when popular culture uses those terms inaccurately, or - worse - portrays mental illness in inaccurate and often harmful way (harmful for people who are suffering mental illness). I’ve been explaining to people I personally know that “psychopath” doesn’t automatically mean a violent murderer, or that schizophrenia isn’t split personality and similar stuff, thank you not, Hollywood. 

Did Ward kill lot of people? He probably did. (We don’t know how many, but I don’t think he could have committed massive slaughter of hundreds for Hydra because the goal of Hydra was to hide in plain sight. That doesn’t go well with leaving a thick bloody trail behind you). I think he did it for both SHIELD and Hydra (and it was okay while it was for SHIELD, hello double standard - and this is something I like to discuss, and we can certainly discuss at some later point, I’m so happy you’re all for civil discussion.) and I think both of these organizations have used him, and other specialists as well, as their guns, their executors. I like to draw a parallel to Nuerberg trials after WW2 and wonder who is more at fault - soldiers or those who issue orders? 

Can he be redeemed? He absolutely can. (Look at Natasha, who has done a lot of bad things we weren’t shown, but they’re being mentioned as we go.) He hasn’t crossed the event horizon of morality like, say, Darth Vader. He’s not really a villain, because a villain needs an agenda. Ward is a follower, not a leader with an evil agenda. Right now he’s a lost man whose world has shattered to pieces. At the very end he started recognizing that things with Garrett have gone to hell - which is, I think, one of the things that sent him spiraling down to the rock bottom. At the very end he looked ashamed, and that gives me a lot of hope he did, the fact that he can feel ashamed. That means he recognizes things he’s done were wrong. Not to mention, it hurt like hell watching him fall all the way down. That in itself was pretty horrible, and most of his fans, if not all (I don’t speak for everyone!) wants to see him find his way back to the light. 

Oh God, this fandom is strange. Loki was panning actual genocide? He was about to enslave the Earth? And it’s totally fine if you ADORE him, but if you support Ward you get worst kind of insults thrown at you. JUst. It baffles me so much.

Finally you’re my colleague by profession (or are about to be) and I am always super thrilled when I find another psychologist here and we can geek out a bit over fannish stuff + our profession. So yes, yes, we can absolutely talk about AoS stuff and all of the characters - I love them all - even if I’m a bit angry with some. I consciously do my best to observe all points with compassion and understanding. :)

Chiming in: “normal” people know rather well what serial killer means. We are perfectly able differentiate a person deserving of this title (who would have own agenda, be actively searching for victims and enjoy the kills) from a person who kills multiple people on orders (any soldier anywhere, fighting for a good or a bad cause).

It is basic (Hollywood if you like) knowledge. Skye KNOWS this. Saying that she (or we) don’t because we are not mental health professionals is naive and prepotent. In that gif, she is actively choosing the most hurtful things and throwing them at Ward. Or does someone think that her next jab on his APPEARANCE somehow makes sense? That is not “calling things as they are”, unless you want to argue that all overserious people with short haircuts look like Hitler Youth (hint: they don’t. They look like overserious people with short haircuts). She called Ward a serial killer because she was angry, and some viewers still do it because it furthers their agenda. Both know perfectly well that they are wrong.

Love
Not a psychiatrist :)

Hi there! Thanks for your input in what is becoming the longest post ever :). You are completely right that many and possibly the majority of people know what serial killer is. Unfortunately, not everyone does. I was explaining to a psych student not too long ago about the difference between serial killers and assassins which was a bit ridiculous. And people have told me that they believe anyone who kills multiple people (even a soldier, for example) is a serial killer. I’m glad that the people you know aren’t like this, but I assure you that they exist.

But yes, in terms of Skye, she was probably using the most hurtful term she could think of. She wasn’t looking for the most accurate words, just the most cutting. I feel like she used the words ‘serial killer’ (as opposed to, say, ‘murderer’) to emphasize the fact that he has killed multiple people and is, therefore, ‘telling it how it is’ from her perspective in terms of that definition.

My goodness, guys, who knew a caption could be so controversial? It’s a bit scary the way people have reacted. I really didn’t mean to offend anyone. I think I’ll just avoid them from now on because this is a bit too intense. I blog to have fun and because I love the show, not to have quasi-arguments with people. If I do caption, it’ll have to be like ‘Coulson and Skye being similarly brutally honest from their own perspective while not necessarily using terms in the accurately defined manner due to the fact that their aim is to hurt or to make a point to their interlocutor rather than to diagnose said interlocutor with any mental illnesses they may or may not have depending on how the DSM-V defines such mental illnesses.’ I should just avoid them because that’s silly and I’d probably get attacked anyway!

Love,

Also not a psychiatrist :)


Anonymous;
omg i met ming na wen and she is perfection omfg :33333  

What?! WHAT??!!! You did?

Omg please tell me more. How? When? Where? What was she like???


vesperass-anuna:

allagentsofshield:

vesperass-anuna:

wanderingrookie:

allagentsofshield:

wanderingrookie:

vesperass-anuna:

starshinehp:

allagentsofshield:

Coulson and Skye cutting the crap and telling it how it is.

Patiently waiting until the tables are turned next season. Coulson is already writing nonsense on the walls, so there is no saying how much the serum will effect him and what he will become. And Skye will have to face her heritage at some point, and decide what to do with the fact that her parents are literal monsters. Survival and the tough choices that come with it may very well start seeming a tad more palatable to her down the road.

Phil is right. No matter what diagnostic criteria you consult, John Garrett falls into a profile of what a mental professional would call a psychopath. (The correct term is antisocial personality disorder). 

However, if Grant Ward is a serial killer, then every soldier, police officer, special agent and every other service person who has committed more than two kills is also a serial killer. Or to make it really really simple for you OP: Grant Ward doesn’t fit the criteria of a serial killer profile. 

Sincerely, 

a person who profiles people at work. 

Lmao!

OP got owned by educated people! Love it when that happens.

Okay, so I try not to reblog my own stuff but since I was referred to specifically in this comment, I feel like I should respond.

Firstly, I’d like to thank vesperass-anuna for their input. Getting feedback from someone who profiles people for a living is really interesting.

Secondly, I too am educated, thank you very much. I’m a psychology student in my honours year. I have spent six years being trained on how to diagnose various disorders. I assure you, I know what psychopaths and serial killers are. My expertise is not close to vesperass-anuna’s, of course, but the moment Skye called Ward a serial killer my first thought was ‘well, technically, he’s not’ as well. I spent ages thinking about how serial killers, unlike, say, assassins for example, kill for emotional and/or psychological gratification and whether killing to please Garrett comes even close to this. Ward behaves more like a soldier: willing to kill under orders from his superior because he believes that’s the right thing to do.

However, after deliberating on this for a very long time, I came to the conclusion that Skye was not using the term ‘serial killer’ in the technical manner. She used the most cutting term she could think of to try and hurt the man who betrayed her.

And you know what? I am not a Ward hater. I understand both sides of the ‘is Ward redeemable’ debate, hence why I’ve avoided getting involved in it. However, the man has killed good people. There is no doubt that he has done bad things. Whatever the reasons for his decisions, he needs to answer for them. He needs someone to ‘cut the crap’ as I said and call out his mistakes. If no one does that, he won’t acknowledge those mistakes. And if he doesn’t acknowledge them, how the hell is he supposed to be redeemed? If he isn’t redeemed and he continues killing, the term ‘serial killer’ may become justified depending on his motivation. That’s something we can discuss in season 2.

Sincerely,

The educated OP who was not, in fact, owned.

So then the caption was incorrect. If you knew Skye’s use of the term was incorrect then how is that her “telling it like it is”? That sounds like a contradiction to me. I will hand it to Coulson though. He finally took notice that his longtime friend was in fact a psychopath. About time too.

allagentsofshield we are in agreement - what Skye said to Ward had the goal of hurting him. An that IS her telling him to cut the crap. My issue with this is not what she said or even why she said it, it’s with the people in fandom who take these words, which were said in anger, and throwing them at me and other Ward fans and calling us Nazi/serial killer apologists. I repeated over and over that Ward doesn’t act like a serial killer. He doesn’t kill for gratification just as you said, he behaves like a soldier. In fact we know he is a trained and hired killer since the show started, but we started judging his actions only after 1x17 (and I am not excusing him, however, I am wondering when are we, as the audience, going to think killing is okay/ and one hired killer is doing a job we approve of while another is being condemned. That’s a question that goes beyond the show too. And that’s one of the reasons why I like AoS - it makes you ask the hard questions and think.) As for psychopaths, Garrett fills the bill. I’ve seen more of those types than I’d like. *shudder* And while sometimes it’s useful to recognize these people after relatively brief interaction, I wish I worked in kindergarten. Or picked a profession of a florist. 

As  for Ward, I sincerely hope he does recognize that things he did were wrong. I expect it won’t happen right away, I expect he’ll be lost and that there would be an eye opening moment somewhere in the first half of the season. I truly hope it doesn’t drag out long. I also expect a lot of people to attack and push in our faces how Ward is terrible and will never get better, is evil etc. From my point of view, I don’t think he’ll turn into a serial killer who kills for gratification; I do fear he could be manipulated by, say, Raina. But all of that remains to be seen and I will judge what he’s become or what kind of progress (or lack of progress ) he’s made at the end of season 2. 

Finally, I realize I probably sounded rude. While it doesn’t excuse me, what I can  say for myself is that I am very frustrated after being called things like Nazi and racist for three months now. 

No, no, you don’t sound rude at all! Like you said, we’re in agreement. I really appreciate you explaining your point of view without saying I’m wrong or something similar. I was a bit hurt by wanderingrookie’s comment since my caption was meant to be a basic description rather than an opinion. I wasn’t prepared for that comment.

I agree with you. Ward does not act like a serial killer in how we define serial killer. But we obviously have a different definition from others due to our job/training. I think most people think of it as simply those who kill multiple people, which I’m obviously not saying is right, but is different from serial killing defined in psychology.

I’m so sorry that things have gotten so upsetting and frustrating for you, especially if you’re just explaining that, from what we’ve seen so far, Ward is a murderer but not technically a serial killer. Fandoms can be scary. And contradictory as well since in some you get slaughtered for sympathizing with the villain, and in others you get slaughtered if you don’t. I’m staying out of the debate and I look at what’s happened anyway. This fandom is especially strange since in most other ones, fans tend to almost unanimously love or hate a character. Ward seems to have split people right down the middle which is unusual. And kinda cool until people start insulting each other all over the place.

Thank you for sharing your opinion, truly. I really enjoy this kind of civil discussion. It doesn’t matter if I agree with you or not, I’m happy to listen and discuss so feel free to send me messages or educationally ‘own’ me again :) (but, like, nicely because I too really, really, really don’t want to fight with anyone). I promise not to be mean.

I think that wanderingrookie is just as frustrated as I am, and while I can’t speak for her, I know she’s not a mean or nasty person. But we’ve been through three months of bullying, anon hate, hate-tagging and whatnot - simply because we happen to like Ward and want to see him find his way out of the darkness and truly earn to be on the good side again. You say that and boom, it’s open season. 

Yeah, I agree, people use terms that mean different things for us who are educated in terms of psychology and mental disorders. And I think it’s important to share that knowledge, especially when popular culture uses those terms inaccurately, or - worse - portrays mental illness in inaccurate and often harmful way (harmful for people who are suffering mental illness). I’ve been explaining to people I personally know that “psychopath” doesn’t automatically mean a violent murderer, or that schizophrenia isn’t split personality and similar stuff, thank you not, Hollywood. 

Did Ward kill lot of people? He probably did. (We don’t know how many, but I don’t think he could have committed massive slaughter of hundreds for Hydra because the goal of Hydra was to hide in plain sight. That doesn’t go well with leaving a thick bloody trail behind you). I think he did it for both SHIELD and Hydra (and it was okay while it was for SHIELD, hello double standard - and this is something I like to discuss, and we can certainly discuss at some later point, I’m so happy you’re all for civil discussion.) and I think both of these organizations have used him, and other specialists as well, as their guns, their executors. I like to draw a parallel to Nuerberg trials after WW2 and wonder who is more at fault - soldiers or those who issue orders? 

Can he be redeemed? He absolutely can. (Look at Natasha, who has done a lot of bad things we weren’t shown, but they’re being mentioned as we go.) He hasn’t crossed the event horizon of morality like, say, Darth Vader. He’s not really a villain, because a villain needs an agenda. Ward is a follower, not a leader with an evil agenda. Right now he’s a lost man whose world has shattered to pieces. At the very end he started recognizing that things with Garrett have gone to hell - which is, I think, one of the things that sent him spiraling down to the rock bottom. At the very end he looked ashamed, and that gives me a lot of hope he did, the fact that he can feel ashamed. That means he recognizes things he’s done were wrong. Not to mention, it hurt like hell watching him fall all the way down. That in itself was pretty horrible, and most of his fans, if not all (I don’t speak for everyone!) wants to see him find his way back to the light. 

Oh God, this fandom is strange. Loki was panning actual genocide? He was about to enslave the Earth? And it’s totally fine if you ADORE him, but if you support Ward you get worst kind of insults thrown at you. JUst. It baffles me so much.

Finally you’re my colleague by profession (or are about to be) and I am always super thrilled when I find another psychologist here and we can geek out a bit over fannish stuff + our profession. So yes, yes, we can absolutely talk about AoS stuff and all of the characters - I love them all - even if I’m a bit angry with some. I consciously do my best to observe all points with compassion and understanding. :)

wanderingrookie has since apologized and explained that she was just feeling defensive, which I completely understand. I imagine if people had been insulting me for months on end, I would be as well. I’m sorry the two of you have been receiving so much hate. This fandom is bizarre. I honestly don’t think I know of any other tv character that has split people to this extent?

Oh, I totally know what you mean about sharing your knowledge with people. I still have to explain to my family that, no, having depression does not make you crazy. Or no, sociopaths don’t go around killing everyone. They lack empathy, they’re more likely to become CEO’s. And for god’s sake, schizophrenia is not the same as a split personality. The paranoid delusions they often suffer from can leave them unwilling to even leave the house. It’s unlikely they will go ahead and kill you in your sleep instead. I could rant about this for ages.

I think the double standard you mentioned comes from the fact that people are assuming that SHIELD only made hits on bad people. We obviously don’t know how accurate this is. Even without Hydra infiltrating them, was SHIELD corrupt already? For example, who experimented on Marcus, Hydra or SHIELD?

And, oh yes, we can geek out. I often do about these things. I’m just like ‘oooh, another psychologist!’ It’s all very exciting.


wanderingrookie:

allagentsofshield:

wanderingrookie:

allagentsofshield:

wanderingrookie:

vesperass-anuna:

starshinehp:

allagentsofshield:

Coulson and Skye cutting the crap and telling it how it is.

Patiently waiting until the tables are turned next season. Coulson is already writing nonsense on the walls, so there is no saying how much the serum will effect him and what he will become. And Skye will have to face her heritage at some point, and decide what to do with the fact that her parents are literal monsters. Survival and the tough choices that come with it may very well start seeming a tad more palatable to her down the road.

Phil is right. No matter what diagnostic criteria you consult, John Garrett falls into a profile of what a mental professional would call a psychopath. (The correct term is antisocial personality disorder). 

However, if Grant Ward is a serial killer, then every soldier, police officer, special agent and every other service person who has committed more than two kills is also a serial killer. Or to make it really really simple for you OP: Grant Ward doesn’t fit the criteria of a serial killer profile. 

Sincerely, 

a person who profiles people at work. 

Lmao!

OP got owned by educated people! Love it when that happens.

Okay, so I try not to reblog my own stuff but since I was referred to specifically in this comment, I feel like I should respond.

Firstly, I’d like to thank vesperass-anuna for their input. Getting feedback from someone who profiles people for a living is really interesting.

Secondly, I too am educated, thank you very much. I’m a psychology student in my honours year. I have spent six years being trained on how to diagnose various disorders. I assure you, I know what psychopaths and serial killers are. My expertise is not close to vesperass-anuna’s, of course, but the moment Skye called Ward a serial killer my first thought was ‘well, technically, he’s not’ as well. I spent ages thinking about how serial killers, unlike, say, assassins for example, kill for emotional and/or psychological gratification and whether killing to please Garrett comes even close to this. Ward behaves more like a soldier: willing to kill under orders from his superior because he believes that’s the right thing to do.

However, after deliberating on this for a very long time, I came to the conclusion that Skye was not using the term ‘serial killer’ in the technical manner. She used the most cutting term she could think of to try and hurt the man who betrayed her.

And you know what? I am not a Ward hater. I understand both sides of the ‘is Ward redeemable’ debate, hence why I’ve avoided getting involved in it. However, the man has killed good people. There is no doubt that he has done bad things. Whatever the reasons for his decisions, he needs to answer for them. He needs someone to ‘cut the crap’ as I said and call out his mistakes. If no one does that, he won’t acknowledge those mistakes. And if he doesn’t acknowledge them, how the hell is he supposed to be redeemed? If he isn’t redeemed and he continues killing, the term ‘serial killer’ may become justified depending on his motivation. That’s something we can discuss in season 2.

Sincerely,

The educated OP who was not, in fact, owned.

So then the caption was incorrect. If you knew Skye’s use of the term was incorrect then how is that her “telling it like it is”? That sounds like a contradiction to me. I will hand it to Coulson though. He finally took notice that his longtime friend was in fact a psychopath. About time too.

By ‘telling it like it is’ I meant that the characters themselves are being brutally honest from their perspective, not necessarily scientifically accurate. From what I took from this scene, Skye is not using the term ‘serial killer’ in a scientific, diagnostic manner. She’s not standing there analyzing Ward’s motivations for killing. I believe she literally means he has committed a series of murders (i.e., he has killed multiple people) which he has. So no, I don’t believe it’s an inaccurate caption since I was referring to her being honest rather than technically accurate.

But of course I understand and respect that you see it differently from me. And I hope you understand why I felt the need to reply to your ‘lmao love when OP’s get owned’ comment. The way that was worded was mildly hurtful. I wanted to clarify that I was not trying to insult Ward when making this gifset. I’m not saying either way whether people should stand with Ward or not. Like I said, I understand both sides and choose not to get involved in the debate. I was simply pointing out Coulson and Skye’s similarity in being brutally honest when it comes to expressing how they think and feel.

Thank you for explaining that. I realize that my commentary to vesperass-anuna’s response came off as rude. And it apologize for that. After 3 months of mud slinging, we’ve started to become defensive. Some of us have had to disappear for a few days to get away from the hate we get. This fandom has taken cyber bullying to a whole new level. There are people who seek out pro-Ward blogs to send anon-hate or catalogue their meta posts to use as examples in their own posts to trash fans. It’s all gotten a bit ridiculous. So I do apologize that I, myself, came out on the defensive when it really wasn’t necessary. We’re supposed to be better than those people. I try to be. But sometimes my anger gets the best of me. And I’m sorry for that.

I don’t particularly like Skye in that scene. But I understand her completely. I don’t like Ward in that scene either. Even though he is “telling it more like it is” than she is. To be honest, the last Skyeward scene that I truly liked took place in 1x19. After that, I don’t like any of the scenes they shared. Because we saw them both at their worst.

But I can’t agree that Skye is “telling it like it is” in this scene. I can agree that she is being just as hurtful to Ward as haters are being to fans of Ward.

Her calling him a serial killer is the equivalent of us being called Nazi apologists. It’s vile and completely wrong. Which is why I don’t like it. And it really bothers me that people completely sided with Skye knowing what they know. Because as the audience, we already know a lot more about what has happened and is happening than the character does. We’re supposed to be using that bird’s eye view that we have to understand the narrative. Instead, there are people who are acting like they’re on the ground with these fictional characters and being completely ignorant and narrow minded, just like Skye. And that bugs me. Because I can never be like that. But you know the serenity prayer, right? I find myself reciting that more and more this summer. Because God knows I have needed it. This fandom is just the worst.

Apology accepted. Like I said, it’s perfectly fine with me if we see things differently. It was only the wording of your comment that upset me a bit and I understand that it was borne out of defensiveness. I have noticed the ridiculous amount of hate going around this fandom and I really don’t understand why. Sometimes I’ll be reading a post and it’s so overwhelmingly and unnecessarily hateful that I have to just close it.

I actually don’t like Skye in quite a few scenes. I spent a good chunk of the season thinking ‘please…just stop.’ I grew to like her more over the season though. I think I understand why she said what she said here. If I found out the man I was falling for had betrayed me like this, I think I would say hurtful things as well. However, you’re right. We as the audience do have more information. Whether we take that information to defend Ward or hate him is up to each individual person. I wish we could do that and discuss our opinions without hating on each other though. I may not change my mind, but I’d love to hear all sides, you know? But that’s why I’ve been avoiding the debate, I just know that no matter what my opinion is, even if it’s neutral, I’ll be slammed.

Can I just also say how glad I am that I avoid shipping? I feel like it’s a whole lot less stressful!


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